kriss vector comparison pic with hk ump conversion...

hi gang,

went to the range and shot the kriss today with a friend who was visiting from nyc.

he is not a gun owner and was able to shoot a group the size of a tennis ball from 21 feet.
it was quite impressive to watch someone with no experience with the kriss be able to
shoot a group that tight with limited gun experience in general.

after my session, the ump arrived and i took it home without shooting it but i took a comparison
pic.

my initial impression was the superior build quality of the hk. it was like comparing a mercedes to
a kit car.

i will give a more detailed impression once i have shot the ump with the kriss.

cl

just got back from the range. couldn't help myself. shot 250 rounds out of the kriss and 250 rounds out of the uk.

the kriss had better ergonomics. the stock fit better into my shoulder. the new design does do what it claims with less recoil
and minimal muzzle rise. i shot a tennis ball sized group with the vector. the hk's group was similar but looked like it was stretched a bit in
a 45 degree angle from bottom left to top right. i'm right handed.

the hk had a better trigger pull. it was consistent while the kriss had a little wiggle to it and has a shorter travel.

pulling the handle back and releasing the slide and pulling the trigger felt better in the hk. doing the same action in the vector felt awkward but it might do to not being familiar to a new style of gun.

if i could sum it up, the hk felt like a mercedes in form function and fit while the vector felt like a kit car. due to the vector's new design
of the action and it's shoulder stock i was able to shoot a tighter group with the vector and felt more comfortable shooting. the hk has an obvious build quality advantage over the vector in it's tolerances i.e. gaps between parts, finish etc...

the vector is extremely comfortable and fun to shoot. i'm more accurate with the vector due to it's comfort and minimal muzzle rise. if i could take one gun to the range to shoot, i would bring the vector. if my life depended on it then i would choose the hk.

just some initial impressions.

best,

cl

thanks for the write up
both your guns are awesome

Greatness! Thanks for the write up and I look forward to more of your thoughts and experiences over time with these. 8)

Those are sweet. SBR both!

Chung, I call dibs on shooting that UMP next. I feel that i am pretty proficient with my KRISS and it has been a long desire to get behind a UMP to compare to my KRISS. Thanks so much for the review. I can't wait. Hoping to get some range time with you next sunday.

Im interested in your report that the UMP feels like a mercedes and the KRISS feels like a kit car. Damn does that mean the Keltec and Hipoint feel like a testors model kit? haha

Solscud007 wrote:Chung, I call dibs on shooting that UMP next. I feel that i am pretty proficient with my KRISS and it has been a long desire to get behind a UMP to compare to my KRISS. Thanks so much for the review. I can't wait. Hoping to get some range time with you next sunday.

you got dibs. just fyi since the last time we talked i might have to take a trip to dc next weekend. i will let you know asap as soon as i confirm either way.

for what it's worth, i think the kriss is more fun and easier to shoot compared to the ump so it's not a worse or better thing. it's a it is what is thing. also, i paid twice as much for the hk then the kriss and that's not an insignificant amount.

they are both nice. i have no doubts you will shoot the hk lights out.

i have my eye on a full auto mac10/11. anyone know what they go for in 9mm?

cl

Hmm. My friend might. He has a trust in MO. He has a full auto UZI from what i recall.

Wow the HK was TWICE the price off the KRISS? Is that because of the kit? There was a guy selling a HK UMP with kit installed for $1200. I passed cause im broke and dont need another pistol caliber carbine.

i could have sent in a usc rifle and have it converted for 2k or purchased one already converted on a new rifle. with the fake suppressor and sbr engraving and some other labor it was 4k total.

i have tried all the permutations and they all end up around 4k so i just bit the bullet.

the conversion you would want done to most closely resemble an hk with hk parts is different then some other types of conversions out there.

this gun was going to be a keeper so i wanted the best of the best. the quality shows. all that being said, i think the hk is a little over rated for the price.

cl

Oh I'm sure. Just like cars. So many companies and models to do the same thing.

Mac 10 and 11 full auto got from $3000 to $4500

Hey Chung, mind taking a close shot of your stock button latch, hinge and buttpad screws? Someone else in CT owns a KRISS and asked me what the deal is with the buttpad screws. Out of cuiosity, I wanted to see what your Vector is using for the hinge pin and what your button looks like.

chunglee99 wrote:
i have my eye on a full auto mac10/11. anyone know what they go for in 9mm?

cl

Here is what my friend said when I asked him.

JsARCLIGHT wrote:Price depends on what model you are looking at. They are ALL cheap (under 4 grand) but certain models and makes are better quality and are in higher demand.

Most of them you will find are SWD (Cobray) M11's. The actual Ingram M10 is getting rare and is the most sought after. The M10 is fat and short while the M11 is skinny and long.

If I was buying an Ingram I'd buy one of the cheaper SWD M11's then get the Lage slow fire upper for it along with their grip and stock kit. I know two guys locally who own M11's and both have done the Lage conversions. Seriously the M11 is one jagged, cheapass weapon without it. The Ingram series were designed to be cheap to produce, cheap to use and basically be "disposable" submachine pistols. Most people I know who get into the class III machine gun market get one first as "training wheels" then later sell it and move up to an Uzi (like I have) or some other series of 9mm subgun that is more comfortable to shoot with better ergonomics. Honestly I never shoot my Uzi any more. Full auto is fun for the first ten minutes and the euphoria wears off fast... then you find yourself trying to shorten your bursts down to two and three rounds to get better accuracy and at that point you can achieve the same results just with your finger. Plus all the new submachine guns that have had extensive design work with CADDCAM and field tests are not available to civilains so we end up using 30 year old clunky hardware that usually has quite the recoil and weigh a ton.

But in all seriousness the best "bang for your buck" are the Ingrams. Just be prepared to spend a hundred bucks EVERY 5 MINUTES on ammo for them. Ingrams have insanely high rates of fire without the Lage conversion (something in the ballpark for 1200rpm), which means you can dump an entire 30 round mag in one 2 second burst. And speaking of mags, if possible tell your friend to find one that takes either the factory metal mags or one that has been converted to run STEN mags. The factory zytel plastic 9mm mags for the M11 series are pure unadulterated sh!t, plus they are hard to find and expensive. It's better to have twenty STEN mags for $5 than one zytel mag for $35.

thanks a bunch for the mac info. that was exactly the type of info i was looking for. lot to consider in regards to a cheap machine gun. sounds like there is no such thing as a cheap machine gun. i have a feeling i will need to step up to an uzi. loved the way it shot, especially with the slower recycle rate.

here are a couple of pics of the butt pad screws and the pin. the side button to fold the stock is completely depressed and does not wiggle or budge. the entire stock does not wiggle at all and the rifle feels like one piece.

we are good to go for a sunday shoot next week. let's touch base in the middle of the week to set it up. i'm traveling and will be back late saturday. feel free to email or call me at your leisure.

i shot the hk and kriss side by side today and i like them both but neither are perfect.

looking forward to meeting up. i'm now deciding what optics to get. i would like to run one optic on both but you know how that goes. lol...

cl

edit: i forgot to take a picture of the stock button but it is completely depressed and flush to the stock and does not move or wiggle one bit.

Ok interesting. They did use a hex screw and drilled out the hex for the hinge pin.

And they did glue in the buttpad screws. I wonder why? Is an adjustable buttpad considered a collapsible stock? More than likely KRISS USA was merely CYA.

Does your button latch have a V logo?

Sounds great. We can see if my eotec lines up with your HK sights. Cause if it does, then you should be good to go.

Like guns, quality counts. Eotecs hold zero very well, I think. Of course the answer is to buy one for each but let's be realistic you spent a lot of money recently haha.

I'll bring my optics and Kriss. Should be fun. Call you later this week.

Chung
Thank's for the pics, I also live in Ct. My CRB is exactly the same as yours. For the life of me I cannot figue out why they filled in the heads of thE M5 x 10MM Socket Screws. CT law stipulates we cannot have a folding nor a adjustable stock. The Butt Pad has nothing to do with the stock. I have a AR10 with a Magpul PRS 2, which has an adjustable Butt pad an d it is CT legal. I guess we have to live with it. Where do you shoot. I have a EOTECH on top with a Insight Light/Laser combo with a remote switch.

Joe,

check your pm. I sent you info. I will talk to Chung.

Joe W wrote:Chung
Thank's for the pics, I also live in Ct. My CRB is exactly the same as yours. For the life of me I cannot figue out why they filled in the heads of thE M5 x 10MM Socket Screws. CT law stipulates we cannot have a folding nor a adjustable stock. The Butt Pad has nothing to do with the stock. I have a AR10 with a Magpul PRS 2, which has an adjustable Butt pad an d it is CT legal. I guess we have to live with it. Where do you shoot. I have a EOTECH on top with a Insight Light/Laser combo with a remote switch.

ct gun compliance laws regarding the evil features are pointless and just creates a means to prohibition. i just follow the rules.

i shoot indoors at the bridgeport range and outdoors in danbury. they are both reasonably in expensive but always crowded and the danbury range is limited in hours.

cl

Shot the UMP today. This is my first real test of a comparable carbine in 45 acp. Im not going to test the KRISS against a Hipoint 45 carbine, AR 45, Camp Marlin 45, or a Beretta CX4. Those are not in the same class as the KRISS.

I must say the UMP is a truly well engineered weapon. KRISS felt solid to me until I shot the UMP. If the KRISS is a well tuned and engineered professional go-kart, the UMP is Formula 1. It is that much better in terms of engineering and tolerances. Another pro for the UMP is that the ejector works perfectly for unfired rounds. You cock the charging handle back and the live round goes flying out. Not the case with the Vector.

Now the downsides. The Iron sights are too close to the top rail that co-witness irons with an optic is nigh impossible unless you get the optic to sit directly on the rail. I mean absolutely no riser of any kind and then you might be ale to get a 1/3 lower co-witness.

Another issue is the mags. While well built and solid, they are just awkward. They are a huge brick. There is absolutely no reference as to which way is forward if you grab a mag off the bench. If you had custom kydex mag pouches made up, then you could orient the mags in one direction everytime so you know when you go to grab it. A simple contour on the leading edge corners would help give the operator feedback. Also the Mag of the UMP only hold 25 rds whereas the Vector mags with extension hold 30 rds.

The mag release is like that of the MP5. While the KRISS Vector requires the left hand to activate the glock style mag release, there is a possible fix for this to remove the mag with the index finger. Im not sure what you can do with regards to the HK.

Shooting the HK is interesting. It is solid. Like a tank. But I notice my sight picture moves a lot more so than with the KRISS. I find that i am spending more time re-aligning my sights back on target. Im not sure if that is due to something I'm doing as a shooter or just that the Super V system does what it is supposed to, because it doesnt take me that long with the KRISS.


The stock on the HK UMP is noticeably longer length of pull and so the gun's weight seemed further away from me than the KRISS. Also I got a little bit of cheek bite from the HK UMP. The recoil is more pronounced and the rubberized plastic on the cheek piece caused friction against my face as the stock moved back and forth.

Pics and video to come.

awesome cant wait for he video

Here is a pic.

Video. Im gonna post this in the Video section as well.

Solscud007...
Not to revive an OLD thread...but..

I was seriously looking at the USC...I have a USP Tatical .45 and it would have been a good match. I had shot a UMP clone once and it was a VERY solid weapon. Substantial for an SMG clone...but it's as big as an M4 in USC trim and not much smaller as a UMP.

USC is $1500-ish around town (Buds is $1455 x 3% CC...they only had the 'gray' ones when I called)

UMP conversion is $750-$1100 and more...I actually never got a hard quote because the prices fluctuate on availability.

Not only that but guys like Tom Bostic (whose supposed to be the shiznet for conversions) is 6-10 weeks out.

Mags are stupid high..figure another $200 or more just for enough mags.

So I was in the $2500 plus range (actually closer to $3200) to have a UMP clone.

You could just shoot the basic USC. Pro-Mag has 20 rounders for $40 each. OR..get the "GG" (grease gun conversion) for $350 and shoot using grease gun or modified Uzi mags....but you're stuck with the funky USC stock that doesn't fold.

After thinking about all that and trying for a month to find a nice used one for under retail...I wound up ordering the Kriss. I have a Glock G21 Gen 4 that I like to shoot. I reload for it (non-lead for the Glock) so I knew I could develop a workable handload for the Kriss. It just came down to 2 cool guns...but the HK UMP clone after it was said and done was almost 2x the cost and it would be in and out of circulation for several weeks. I don't think the basic trim USC is better than the Kriss. Overall I liked the Kriss looks better but, as you said, the HK is a beast. Well built and solid. It was a hard choice and I don't have my Kriss to play with yet.

I appreciate the video comparo though...

Cheers!

Undrpsi

Not at all. Thanks for you insights. You came to the same conclusion as I did.